(I have some difficult feelings about Zen transmission, and whether it means anything, that I might write up one day.)
IkkyusDen
I think the role of “spiritual teacher” is actually a needed one
And most people go a bit bonkers as soon as they get that status
Help tpot what do?
selflathing
@IkkyusDen I have deep reservations about Zen transmission. I’ve seen transmitted teachers who are going through life obviously unintegrated, causing great harm; and teachers who are simply underequipped to deal with student needs.
@IkkyusDen For a tradition that likes to set up a didactic teacher/student dynamic it sure would be nice if teachers were meaningfully qualified.
@IkkyusDen A practitioner with deep and broad ties across the Zen community might be able to query the grapevine to determine whether a lineage is reputable or beset by drama. But that’s nigh-impossible for a new student.
@IkkyusDen I wish I had an answer but I don’t. As you can probably tell, this question is live for me! So far my approach is to try and find a different tradition that has a decent amount to say about “after kensho”.
selflathing> @nograsper @sabethunder the large number of awakened teachers who have still got up to all sorts of unpleasant behaviour suggests that one does not necessarily follow from the other 1806430011206865138 @nograsper 1806427356526948828
@nograsper @sabethunder taizan maezumi, eido shimano, richard baker come to mind
without much effort. maezumi even atoned for having an affair with a student and
even *still* ended up drowning in a bathtub because he was drunk
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2024-08-27 16:56:22+00:00 cmilesb> if we trust in it, lineage is important. If we do not, it isn’t. 1828475974565994695
selflathing> @cmilesb how does one regain trust after a betrayal? after abiding dubiousness?
not a theoretical Q. my old sangha is still going thru this
1828476661802664108 @cmilesb 1828475974565994695
cmilesb> @selflathing we’re all different in regaining trust. for me, it would mean an honest acknowledgment and atonement plus changes to the sangha itself. i went ten years without a sangha because I couldn’t find trust. eventually learned my doubt was the problem. in west, i find this a 1828497272465957310 @selflathing 1828476661802664108
@selflathing particularly difficult issue as there are few reputable institutions.
there are no monastic universities. which of course aren’t perfect. but, in my
experience American buddhism has much stronger guru focus and individuality than in
India where I learned.
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selflathing> @cmilesb i suppose a notable failure to acknowledge and atone across a lineage is in itself one way that lineage can be important + useful
i don't like the notion that people are tainted based on their lineage though.
feels judgemental, dismissive. might be a good thing nonetheless
1828498984496964033 @cmilesb 1828498185037455388
cmilesb> @selflathing channeling my teachers, they might say skillful thought can differentiate the helpful teachings from the individual actions. so it’s up to you. personally, i could not have really gone into deeper learnings if I didn’t love my sangha and teachers. It’s tough. 1828502954242122091 @selflathing 1828498984496964033
selflathing> @cmilesb yeah, i do feel like i’ve become unmoored since being out of spiritual community. but it’s been so hard to find another one which resonates
feels like there's a little longer in the wilderness for me yet
1828503615541063773 @cmilesb 1828502954242122091